Tracking time

00:00 Hello and welcome to Perspective. This is a show by founders of small indie creative agencies, giving our perspective on starting and running our own companies. The aim is to provide some useful advice and inspiration to others as well as learn from each other and others who may get to come talk on the show. This is our seventh episode. My name is John Dark. I'm a director at Every Interaction and with me I have Dan Ghent from Lighthouse London. Hello, Dan.

00:21 Hey, John. How's it going? I'm very well. How are you? Not bad. Have you finished your site yet? No, we've been a bit busy. We haven't started.

00:33 Give up. Yeah. Not good enough. I'll report back when we've got something significant to say. It might be a while.

00:45 All right. I'll keep following up. Yeah, please. Please do. Keep the pressure on. We need it. Keep pressing refresh. So this week, we touched on this a couple of times, but we thought we might talk about time tracking and how and why we both do it, how we think it benefits our business, I guess.

01:08 So I believe we both track time, right? You do it as well? Oh, yeah. We're tracking the time. Yeah. How long have you been doing that for?

01:19 Well, we use a free agent. Our accounting software has a time tracker in it. Okay. When did we start doing that? I think probably when we started using the software, which would have been very, very early days. I think maybe after a couple of years, I think we just had a conversation about how long did a website take to build.

01:46 It's quite a useful piece of information. Yeah. So I think we then just said, okay, let's start tracking time. How about yourself?

01:56 I think we've pretty much been doing it since the beginning, to be honest. Well, before every interaction existed, when it was my own independent company, I was tracking my time in that. I think, yeah, pretty much since day one, I think because it's day one, I'd been using freelancers to help us with the production side of things.

02:18 And a lot of the work we were doing for clients was time and materials. We needed a way to be able to track that, tally up everything at the end of each month, and slap it into an invoice, basically, to send to the client to build them for the time that we'd used.

02:38 And I think that began for the first couple of months with spreadsheets, and that quickly became tiresome. Wow. What is looking at your watch and putting it into a spreadsheet?

02:49 Yeah. Well, at the end of the day, the usual end of the day, what have I done today? Having an Excel spreadsheet, Google Docs did not exist at the time. Got you. Getting everybody to tally up for just turning around to the person sitting next to you and asking what they did all day, so you can put it in the timesheet. Yeah. And that gets tiresome very quickly. So everybody looked around for an alternative to speed things up, which became, for us, it was Harvest App. Yes.

03:18 Been using them for, well, more or less since they were around, I think, since the very early days, probably about seven or eight years now in total. Right. I just had a complete flashback to the fact that before Free Agent, we did use a thing called Slim Timer, which was something I used to use back in the agency when we were there that was around then. And we did bring that forward, and I got Tom on it, but we weren't very diligent. This idea of turning around and saying, "What did you do today?" and sticking it out on the spreadsheet, that's way more disciplined.

04:05 I think that's your freelancer training right there. Yeah. I think when we had the freelancers in, we were quite strict about it and definitely made the freelancers capture their time. But when it was just myself and Neil, we only really bothered to do it on the projects that were Timer materials based so that we could track it. And everything else just was in the gaps in between, anything that may have been on a fixed price contract or a different kind of arrangement. Then I guess for a long while, we didn't bother tracking it as closely. But to us, this largely changed once we started having people around permanently, which was before our first full-time member of staff, we had essentially freelancers who stayed with us for years. And I think it started to become important to understand what they did day to day and where the time is being spent.

04:58 It's such an obvious thing to me to know. I can't believe I ever didn't need to know it. So if it's just you and your time, it's a hard justification to make, I guess. You can still justify it, but you think, "Oh, I know what I did." And you can just write it down or do something with it. But once you need to start accounting for somebody else's time, I think you need to bite the bullet and fork out for a tool to help you do it. So up until that point, was it all just about the deadline? It must have been. It must have just been about, "This is when this needs to be delivered. I'm guessing I should be working on it because it seems like it's going to take until then." As in now, I'd maybe scope something out and be like, "Well, I probably need this many hours because I've got a time from a similar project." But then it must just have been like, "Finger in the air. Get coding." It was instilled in me from the agency days back at 26. We were constantly being drilled by, I think it was mostly the head of project management or... I can't remember the name of the role of the person who was really responsible for it, but they did all the reporting.

06:20 They would get each project manager to make sure that everyone working on their projects in turn filled out their timesheets every day. They were often daily emails around to the project team just to check. At the end of the week, they would look back and see if there were any gaps missing and hound people to fill it in. There was some terrible piece of software that you had to put it in.

06:46 Oh, it was awful. It was something on SharePoint, wasn't it? I can't remember. I do remember tracking the time it took me to fill it in though. Yes, yeah. Yeah, timesheets is a code in the timesheet system because it was so appalling to use that it took so much time.

07:00 So bad. That's why I started using that slim timer back then so that at the end of the week, I could just look across that and see what I'd done. But obviously, that's because all of that stuff was pretty much billable. That was why those timesheets were being done. I think you're right, when you start doing fixed-price projects, you almost think, "Well, it doesn't matter. It's about a deadline and getting the project finished." Little do you think that that data could actually be useful to you. Well, this is exactly it. How do you know if you're delivering that project on time?

07:40 I think I've touched on in previous shows that you don't and ignorance is bliss because you're not delivering it on time. You're working way too hard for not enough money. And sometimes it's best not to be told that for morale. Yeah. I think we're guilty of overspending on quite a lot of projects to make sure we get the details right and finish off things to a standard that we're happy with. I mean, that's what contingency is there for, I think, in that when we're planning anything, there's always some contingency in the costings that we're providing. If there's a fixed cost, it has to be. Otherwise, exactly that happens. You're going to overrun and suddenly it's an unprofitable project. Don't you always use other contingency there? It's quite abstract contingency, isn't it? It's like, I mean, this is coming from someone that doesn't really happen.

08:41 You do use it quite often and occasionally you might blow through it as well. Those are the really good ones. Yeah. I guess it comes down to how you define profit really. Sure. We've kind of got continuously baked into the rate itself, I guess. Yes, we definitely have that. The rate that we bill is not the burn rate for the business in terms of all expenditure, office rent, tax, salaries, leasing, software, everything else, internet, so all that stuff added up doesn't equal the rates that we charge. We don't put time on something and then try to deliver it in 75% of that time. I guess there's 20% contingency perhaps in the rate itself. Yeah. No, I think that's where our contingency is really, like you say, is that if you start going over, you're basically looking at a lower rate, but it's not a problem for a while. It's a cultural thing for us, I think.

09:48 Maybe we're talking about something a little bit different to tracking time now, but we've always prioritized the work being good and the relationship being good. I think as we've grown and gone along, it's the last thing that's been tackled is how do we keep to these estimates or how do we improve these estimates, keep to them, and essentially start prioritizing that because you suddenly start to realize the damage getting that wrong does in terms of work you could then be doing plus lost money on the project. I think, yeah, time tracking is obviously a massive part of doing that, knowing where you're at, how long things have taken you. It's pretty obvious how you track your time when you're working on project stuff. Do you track your outsider project time?

10:48 What do you mean by outsider project time? This now. Are you tracking this now? No, this isn't on the company clock. Oh, okay. Oh, really? This is purely for fun.

10:59 Yes, yes. But do you track time you spend in new business or time you spend doing marketing?

11:10 Yes, we try to. That's part of where we've gotten to now, I think, in that attempting to account for what does everyone do with their eight hours a day? Where does it go? We've got a load of time codes in the system, projects that we created to account for all the other things such as working on our own website that we eventually hope to be able to do properly and marketing and new business.

11:41 So if I spend an hour on new business or writing a few hours a day writing a proposal and in several days running a proposal, I should be tracking that and I should be putting that in the timesheets.

11:55 We've got a view over time how much effort we're putting into that and how much time of mind we can afford to be... Anybody's. How much time of anybody's we can afford to be booking on billable work basically versus the other responsibilities that they seem to have according to their timesheets. Absolutely. And I think that's, again, a key piece of information for when you're looking to hire outside of design and development.

12:26 Yeah, recently we've just hired a marketing new business person. They're going to be doing some of that work and so it's important to know, well, how long does that work take? Tom and I sat down, Platt looks over our times on things that weren't project work and realized that we actually can't give this person everything because it's more than a person's work. Which obviously means as well that it's time to hire them, right? That's when you've got that much stuff for them to do.

13:03 Absolutely. Tracking time can definitely help with that. I've always found with tracking time, it's like that puzzle where you turn nine squares and you cut them several times and then you rearrange it and there's an extra square or there's one square less. Do you know the puzzle I mean?

13:23 No. Google it. Basically, something appears or gets lost. It's like when I'm tracking time, do you ever finish the day and go, "Oh look, seven and a half hours of track time or eight hours or wherever long you drive your people to work?" Yeah. Sometimes it's nine hours and you've only been there for eight and you're like, "Whoa, what did I do wrong there?" I left the clock running. I do things to the minute. When doing client work, we have minimum billable periods so you can't do anything that takes less than an hour on a single project basically. Those sort of rounding errors account for some of the extra hours perhaps spent or extra minutes spent here and there. But yeah, I mean, we don't look at it and go, "Oi, you over there, you only put seven and a half hours in today. We did that half an hour ago." It's not like that.

14:22 It's just making sure people are putting in as much as they can realistically track. You can't track everything. Something might happen that you can't account for.

14:34 Facebook or Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you have a view in your business as to how billable your employees need to be? No, we haven't got there yet, although conversations are being had about it. It's quite an issue that I've mulled over a lot actually because I've always been very into the culture of Lighthouse being, "You come, deliver great stuff and then you go home and no one's really watching you. No one's really watching when you come, when you go home." It's a nice idea. Yeah, but it's kind of how it's been. Now we're growing a bit.

15:19 I think we're seeing the holes that leaves and the strain that puts on being able to know when we can take on the next project. So not things about actual people. That's why I'm sort of loath to change it because it feels like changing it is saying, "I'm now going to start watching you. I'm now going to start asking questions about how many billable Lighthouse can you do in a week and set a target." I mean, again, to me, it seems that to make that move says you're now being watched a bit. And maybe I'm being stupid. I mean, I expect back in the agency days, I didn't feel watched. I remember putting in whatever times and I knew how long I had been working and I knew that if I wasn't that billable, it probably was not entirely my problem. I'd probably been dragged off to do something stupid on another project or something.

16:11 So maybe I'm just being too self-conscious, not self-conscious, company-conscious, culture-conscious. But there are holes showing in terms of being able to set how much work Lighthouse should be able to achieve and have that measurable to have some visibility over it, to know when we might be able to take something else on, as I said. So yeah, it's a bit of a sore point really. So thanks for bringing it up in this podcast. But do you understand what I'm saying?

16:46 Yeah. I mean, we don't have a view either. I think it's an inevitability of scale. I think it's going to come eventually. And when you get to a certain size, I think you need to know how much money the business needs to be bringing in to keep everybody employed. Because the larger you get, the bigger the risk, the more money needs to be coming in the door to support everyone's salaries and the larger overheads that larger business has. And so in order to hit that, you need a minimum amount of work being done, which means a minimum amount of billable work per head, I guess. But we don't really have a view on it. I mean, people we employ are much more billable than us because we're doing a lot of new business stuff. If I were to guess, I'd say, "I'm like 50% or less on billable time," just because of all the other responsibilities we have that aren't billable. I couldn't hazard a guess as to what our employees' billable time is probably quite high. Yeah. It isn't a major concern of ours at the moment because enough money is coming in, people are getting paid, enough work's coming in, but I can see it becoming something we're going to have to pay closer attention to in the future. Absolutely. And one thing we don't do enough of at the moment, which I'd like to do more with all this data we're gathering, is a bit more post-mortem on projects. Looking back at the projects, especially a larger one that would have been on a fixed cost, for example, where we would have had to have scoped out the project in detail in advance to try and estimate how much money is going to be required and where we would have assigned that because we always do a project plan based on that to come to that figure, quite a detailed one. And it would be interesting to really deep dive on the timesheet data and analyze everything that's there, break it down in a way so that we can compare it against that original plan and see how accurate it was, just overall numbers in terms of whether you did it on budget or not. It's a profitable project or not, break even or even loss making, but it would be interesting to break it down a bit more and see exactly where the time is being spent and then take learnings from that to apply to the next project that you need to scope out.

19:11 Yeah. And we don't do enough of that right now. In fact, we do pretty much next to none of it because as soon as you finish one thing, you're straight onto the next and you never leave time to do these retrospective exercises on things. But I would definitely like to do more of it. And that's something on my radar.

19:32 Yeah. And I mean, you'd have to time the time you took to do that retrospective, right? I mean, that's my other thing about having people on billable targets is I'm also asking them to be creative and do little things to improve the business and take responsibility. And I think the moment I say, well, you can do all of that, but can you do it in the 20 minutes over loud days?

19:57 You know what I mean? Like it's hard. I feel like you do strip people of the urge they're going to have to do that kind of stuff. Unless I suppose you break that in as well. And that's just you as an agency and your rate has that baked in. That's why, if that's one of the reasons why you're great because of those little bits of innovation you let people do and how they do things, let people try stuff out, then maybe that's got to be baked into your rate as well.

20:28 I suppose as you scale, you need to know how much of that people are doing and what effects it has. Yeah. I think with us, that probably already is baked into that rate. Yeah. That getting the details right, the honing the details, the amount of iteration time we think is necessary to usually do a good job on the type of project that's coming in. But that's so far, that's mostly come from just experience and having done it for a long time and not necessarily born of statistics, I guess.

20:59 No, sure. It's not as quantifiable and I would like it to be more so. Okay. Yeah. That's your point on the debrief. We do run them. We've got a few piled up at the moment for exactly the same reason you were saying that you're just straight onto the next thing.

21:16 But yeah, we've got a dashboard we made out of our timesheets. Free agent has an API, one of our little internal projects, which again is timed. This thing is timing itself, is that it goes and looks at those timesheets and brings them out and creates some nice visualization of how much time is left in the project, how much time you've gone over, who did what. It's pretty nice and it probably doesn't get looked at as much as it should.

21:53 That's going to ask, do you really use it? It depends on the project it's going, right, and how you're feeling. Okay. Yeah. We get all that out of the box with Harvest. It does all that for you.

22:07 So you set up the project and if it has a fixed budget, you put that value in, it tracks time against it. You see a nice little graph over time and how soon it is until you're going to hit it. And they've even got another tool for forecasting that allows you to plan your team's time and then against projects and see if the plan you've got in place is going to burst the banks as well. Yeah.

22:31 And then you can set up all sorts of alerts so you can put alerts on it to say like, tell me when it gets to 75% or tell me when it gets to 90% and just keep your way of what's going on, which is all pretty useful. We usually set those things up, especially when there's a fixed time, a fixed budget on a project that we need to be working to.

22:50 Okay. And quite often we do projects where if the budget's limited, we'll often sort of do a time and materials basis style way of working, a little more agile, I guess, in that there's a fixed budget to work to, but the scope is variable. And we're trying to achieve as much as we can. And we've got a deadline and a budget that's going to get us there, but how much we're going to achieve in that time is really going to be variable based on what priorities are set as we go. Because there's not enough of a definition in the brief to come to sort of a fixed scope, fixed cost agreement.

23:30 Right. Great. And in those scenarios, say that point in the future is a month ahead and we've got x amount of money to get there, then we need to do quite a bit of reporting and give our client visibility on how much is being spent probably on every week, we'll say, right tally up. This is how much is spent so far. This is how much is left, make all that completely visible to them. And then we can all make decisions about what's in the backlog left to do to prioritize the things that need to get done first in that timeframe. That happens quite a bit. And those types of reporting tools are really, really useful for that. So you just go in and you get an instant snapshot of where you're at in the project. Got you. Yeah. I mean, we did do billing on time in a short period at one point, kind of found it quite hard culturally, I suppose, like our kind of rhythm of talking to clients and what we talked to them about was all fixed costs. So you didn't really talk about the amount of time spent until it was looking like becoming a problem. And then sometimes you didn't talk about it then. But you basically, if you're going to go to that different model where you're kind of showing what you've done in terms of time build, I've always found it hard to switch into that, and almost found a slight resistance within myself to talk about it. Oh, we've spent this much and, you know, sorry. You know what I mean? You've got a plan before that. You've got to that number and that value by doing some sort of scoping work, I guess. You say we can achieve something in this time, but we're pretty sure we can't achieve everything. So there's going to be things left on the cutting room floor, but it depends on what the goals of the project are and what's happening next. So an example, we met a client today. You've just got to get like a proof of concept together, essentially, to take around to a potential set of their clients to get enough buy-in from a critical mass of people in this market so that they can then take that guarantee buy-in back to investors and raise around a funding to fund the product. And so there's no fixed definition around what that needs to be. It just needs to be convincing these people they need to meet that this is a good idea and they need to be on board with it. And then it's done its job. So it's not a complete product. It doesn't need to have every bell and whistle polished. It just needs to do the job of convincing a handful of people that it's a good idea. So in those scenarios, it's where we can work to a fixed budget and what we achieve in that budget, as long as we achieve enough to convey that, then we've succeeded. And we think we can do that in about, at least give us this amount of money and we can definitely get there. Then it's just a case of deciding what those priorities are to make sure that it does its job.

26:52 And kind of take away the friction that comes with exactly what's going to be in and exactly what's going to be out. Because yeah, that takes energy as well. There's a management energy in keeping track of all that. Whereas as you say, if you've literally just got priorities and a big goal to aim at, you can relax a bit on that side of things and use that time to pump into actually putting features into it. No, absolutely. We've rarely worked like that, but I can completely see why you would. I think the other area where it comes, it's really useful for us to look back at the statistics and do this type of things with the other end of the scale, much larger clients.

27:37 The finance department will come to this team and ask them how much money they need for the next year. And they've got to set this money aside in advance to make sure they've got enough to pay everyone to do the things that they've got on their plan. And in those scenarios, you've got quite a bit of guesswork to come to a value so that they can sign off the money in a purchase order. Yeah.

27:58 So you've got to do it right. And we have some clients with whom we have this kind of relationship and it's an ongoing relationship year after year. We're continuing to help work on their products and we get to those values based on the work we've done last year. So we'll look at the analytics of the project as a whole over the last 12 months and get an understanding of the time we spent to achieve the sort of burn rate. And then we'll look at the plan ahead and compare that to what was achieved in the year before. And if it's of a similar sort of level of ambition, we can assume the burn rate is probably relatively similar and therefore the budget so we can assign a similar level of budget to that project again. And then all that stuff again goes into harvest. So you can set all that and work against the retainer value that the time sheets that you're submitting are constantly eating away at until it gets to a really low level and you can set up alerts again. So yeah, we find it useful for those types of things as well.

28:59 No. Okay. That makes sense. And off the back of all that, I mean the same system does all our invoicing as well and then ties into zero, which we've just started trying to use and pushes all the sales through into that and in turn connects to our bank accounts and expenses. And we're still in the process of getting that set up properly, but hopefully that'll give us a much bigger picture of everything that's going on money wise in the business and we can be a bit more accountable.

29:30 Yeah. What did you use before zero? Nothing. Whoa. That's impressive. Accountants. Right. Yeah.

29:42 Or just keep an eye on the bank balance and make sure there's a healthy number in there. Oh, you're going to love it then. It's great. We use FreeAsian basically does the same gig.

29:53 It's invoicing all tied to bank accounts and that. So you've been in it for a while. Yeah, completely. I really like that. It's one of the things I actually like about running a business is the fact that you can push different factors around like time, what you're going to build for that time. Oh, here's how many people you've got. It feels a bit like when I used to play football manager back in the late 90s. You're a natural born accountant then.

30:23 It feels like a strategy game, except a strategy game which my livelihood relies on. So try not to lose. You're more of a numbers man. I've always hated that stuff. I can't stand the finances side of the business. It drives me insane. I just can't get a handle on it and I've always just purposely pushed all that away off onto the accountants that we use. But now we're going through this business mentorship stuff. He's been forcing us to be a bit more accountable for it.

30:58 Yeah. The last time he was like, "Well, where's your profit and loss statement?" I'm like, "Oh, what?" Don't worry about that. People just hadn't done any of that stuff. So we're just getting into that now.

31:13 Well, that sounds like another episode. Yeah. But yeah, as we're growing and maturing, this is the next big challenge for us. We're actually eyeing up going and getting... Because you do all the project management, don't you? You and Neil do the project management. Tom and I do all ours, but I don't think it's where our heads are at.

31:33 And when I look at the money we could have made on projects if they hadn't run over or the extra money we could make from servicing an existing client, like having someone going to them and saying, "Why don't you try this? What about that?" And you suddenly start to realize that that kind of role could pay for itself, essentially. So I think we're on the cusp of going for someone to actually keep track of time, a human timer.

32:04 Wow. Okay. Which is what I assume project managers are. Well, the timesheets shall reveal all. And when that person submits their timesheets and you submit yours, you can see how much more profitable and billable you're being.

32:19 Yeah. I think it's a big challenge because, as I say, it's moving the business from culturally where it was, which was do a good job, make sure everyone's happy. And I think that was the right...

32:31 I think that was right. It grew us through quality of work and there's no really better way to grow, I don't think, especially for a business like mine and yours, which is founded by the doers.

32:45 It's like, you're right, as it grows, the damage not knowing what's going on time-wise can cause becomes greater and greater. And so, yeah, it's time to kind of get that clocking in and clocking out game. How long have you been on lunch for?

33:01 I got a punch card. Yeah, absolutely. Let me know when you're back on lunch, because I know when you went on lunch. Maybe it's time, yeah, just to cut all friendly ties with the staff and just become that boss.

33:20 You're just a number in my timesheet system. Absolutely. The moment I can replace you with a robot that can do this in less time, I will. But yeah, no, that's the internal struggle I'm going through at the moment.

33:35 Yeah. To me, it's a necessary evil. I mean, no one enjoys doing it. It's a pain in the arse. But without it, I don't think we could run our business without it the way we do.

33:47 We need it to account for the time that we're doing. There are many projects that run entirely on time and materials. And without it, we can't keep track of it across a team of five people.

34:01 It's just not possible. Understand what everyone's doing every minute of the day. You've got to track it. And the more we're tracking, the more I'm starting to get into the stats and I'm starting to learn more about our business and how we can make it better as a result.

34:19 That's got to be worth doing. Yeah, completely. It does reveal what's going on, walks and all, doesn't it? I think I've mentioned it before. It's a bad moment when you first look at the difference between your estimates and how long things are actually taking you. It's a bit of a wake up call and you sort of think, "Oh my God." And the answer is, I think definitely do those sums, work out what you want to charge per hour, work out how many people you've got. And you can, at the end of the day, come to how much money you're going to need. As you said, you've got to know how much money you've got to bring in.

35:01 And if you can't work that out, then you may well find it's under the amount of money you need to actually exist. It's actually quite a healthy moment that you then turn around and raise your rate and find out that you were charging too little in the first place normally.

35:19 Yeah. In fact, little knowledge out there for anyone who is maybe still on their own and freelancing for clients independently. Thinking back, I think one of the turning points for me when I did decide that using a time tracking system that did my invoicing was the right decision to make was when I realized how much time I was actually spending doing it a different way, I was putting my timesheets into a spreadsheet and trying to tally up the stuff across an individual project from several days worth of spreadsheets, then manually laying all that out in an invoice in InDesign and exporting it to PDF and sending it to the client and trying to track when they paid that. And I think after a few months, I added up the amount of time I was spending on that, which turned out to be a disturbingly large number. And then I looked around for the timesheet systems, which costs like, I don't know, $30 a month. And I was spending something like four times that amount of billable time on doing that crap when I could have just been using the system to do it for me. And that, and doing it was just me with, you know, having a couple of freelancers in occasionally that in itself made it a justifiable thing to start doing.

36:45 I think that was only you mate. It wasn't, it wasn't, honest. Anyone else out there is doing their invoicing in InDesign.

37:02 My God. No, you'd be surprised. Were they nice looking? I picked this up from somebody else actually. I let this trick from someone else. Right. It wasn't only me. They weren't very nice looking, but then I had to swallow my pride over having complete control over the design to using a template. A system had determined that also has my logo in and realized my clients don't care if my, what font is used in my invoices.

37:30 They don't know it's not my brand font. Exactly. The logo is still on there. Yeah. I'm losing money because of all the calligraphy I'm using in my statements of account.

37:41 Yeah. Well, yeah. I was spending way too much time doing it. I mean, obviously it was a template in InDesign, but still just putting, getting the data out of Excel and sticking it in there and then tallying it up and doing it with my hand just because it's way too much time. So anyone still doing that, stop. Just go find yourself a timesheet system and start doing it that way and make sure it's one that does invoicing at the same time. It will save you a whole world of hurt. Trust me. Yeah. You can't not be on that stuff exactly. I mean, I know, I know free agent is like 30 pounds a month or something, which if you can't, like you say, if you're not making enough to, for that to save you what you pay for it, then you're not making enough. Yeah. Right. But yeah, absolutely. No, get, yeah, get automate all that stuff. Get it, get it taken away. You know, don't be like John. Also, you know, put your tax returns in through the online portal. Don't do what John does and kind of paint them out fully bespoke illustrated self-assessment forms sent into the in-app revenue and framed by the in-app revenue. Nice. Cool. I think that about wraps it up for this week. So thanks for listening, everybody. If you have any comments, questions, or feedback, you can find us on perspective.fm where you can submit all that through the websites. We're also on Twitter, @_perspective_fm. We're on Facebook and Sank Cloud and all the links are on our websites. I've been John Dark at Dark John on Twitter from Every Interaction at Every Interact. And Dan, where can people find you? I'm going to tell you that in a minute. I just need to interject something. Okay. And behalf of the Lighthouse designers and developers, the thing that they've built is a bit different and definitely probably better than Harvest. Ooh, okay. I'm intrigued now. I'm going to pop around and inspect this. I'm not saying like it's universally better than Harvest. I'm just saying it definitely wasn't a waste of time building it. Well, it wasn't in what you have, so that sounds like progress and an interesting learning experience for everyone involved. Absolutely. As long as you track down your time sheets. It has to be. I made a note from that from earlier because I know if they did listen the moment you explained Harvest would have caused them a lot of turmoil. Because when they saw Harvest, when we all saw Harvest, we said, "Oh, this does what we did." And then it was like, "No, we will never speak of Harvest." No, I'm kidding. Well, there's some sorts of migration issues, right? And the pain of moving from one system to the next. It's just not worth it after a while. No. No. It really isn't. Absolutely. It's not. No. It's important for everyone that we acknowledge that. So where can people find you, Dan? Where can they find me? They can find me and our amazing time tracking system wearelighthouse.com on the Twitter. We're @wearelighthouse. I personally am @GentusMaximus. And yeah, get in touch there. Fantastic. And check out the Lighthouse podcast as well. It's a great episode recently. Absolutely. Get on that too. Cool. All right. Well, thanks everybody. And we'll see you in a fortnight. Cheers!