Working on your own agency website

00:00 Hello and welcome to Perspective. This is a show by founders of small indie creative agencies giving our perspective on starting and running our own companies. The aim is to provide some useful advice and inspiration to others as well as learn from each other and others we may get to come talk on the show.

00:14 This is our sixth episode. My name is John Dark. I'm a director of Every Interaction and with me I have Dan Gent from Lighthouse London. How are you doing Dan? Not bad John, how's things? Alright, jolly good.

00:28 Excellent. And today we thought we might talk about websites, specifically our own websites, not doing them for clients but doing them for ourselves. The worst clients of all.

00:40 Yeah, absolutely. I hate myself. Kind of topical because you guys launched your website, was it just the end of last year?

00:50 Yeah, we managed to get it out the door at the end of last year completely. Nice and I think it looks great. Thank you. And yeah, we are in the process of doing ours at the moment or at least beginning to rethink it and starting to come across all the, yeah exactly, all of the horrible things that follow.

01:11 Don't think. Yeah. We've made a massive mistake there by thinking. So I'm hoping I can learn a lot from you here Dan. Alright.

01:21 You've just gone through this procedure and you're going to embellish us with your wisdom. Yeah, I'll try.

01:33 Cool. So, I mean, we're both digital agencies and I guess websites completely in our wheelhouse as an agency who offer sort of web stuff and does web work for the people.

01:49 There's a kind of pressure on, self-imposed pressure on ourselves to feel like we need or have a really good website. Yeah, it's in the back of your head. It's like the one time that the client's not going to mess it up, right?

02:02 Yeah, exactly. At the same time, it's this age-old problem of being, you know, it's the shoemaker's shoes. When do you have time when you're so busy working other people's projects?

02:14 When do you have time to look at things of your own that aren't directly bringing in any money? No one's paying you to do the project that is your own website. Yeah, basically, you get to the point where you can't stand what you're looking at or it's so woefully out of date, which was what it was in our case.

02:31 We got to the point where, I don't know if you remember our old site, but basically it was me and Tom gurning out at you from the front. And obviously that served us well when it was me and Tom, but we employed two other people.

02:46 And for the first guy, Paul Bloke, it was about 18 months until the website stopped just looking like me and Tom. But our problem was there that actually that one had been really successful.

03:00 You know, we'd actually nailed exactly what we wanted and people loved it. You know, it did exactly what we set out to do in the... We looked around at the time and saw a lot of web agency websites.

03:15 And I think the expression we used was everyone's hiding behind their design. And so we stuck ourselves on the front page and made the story about us and the fact that Tom was a designer, I was a coder, it's a nice narrative to give people when they come in.

03:33 And we can play off it. We played off it on the site, you know, me taking the making out of designers, him calling me a poindexter or something.

03:46 No, he didn't call me a poindexter. It's how rude his poindexter is. It's really American. It's not really rude, is it? Isn't it a cartoon character? I don't know. It's basically, I believe it to me nerd. If it means anything else, then I disown the statement.

04:04 Yeah, I remember Homer calling Bart's friend Milhouse that in Simpsons, so it can't be that bad. No, Simpsons level, that's fine. That's not offensive in any way.

04:17 Exactly. I'm regularly more offensive than Simpsons. Yeah, so it was really good and I think people bought into us because of it.

04:29 Yeah. It was your origin story. It was. And I think coming to do our new one, which took us about six months, we just really wanted to keep that.

04:43 And that was where the pressure was really, rather than the new site having to be amazing, which I kind of just backed it to be because I thought the guys do great design.

04:56 And I just thought, you know, it's going to look great, but I just did not want to lose that and become, I think one of the first things we shared around was this. It was either it was maybe a GIF or just a sort of mean kind of thing, which had every like lots of examples of web agency site.

05:17 And they're all just like dark hero image, like one line tagline about, you know, how creative they are or something.

05:27 And it was all at the same. And I think someone just posted that up in our slack and was like, not this, you know what I mean? And then it was just about like, how different can we be?

05:38 And I think I was always pushing for it to be like out there. I came up with some absolutely ridiculous ideas for it and just had people like reeling it back in.

05:50 Then I was too scared. It was too safe. As you say, you know, you really kind of don't understand the pain a client goes through until you try and be the client, you know, having to make decisions about your business, which you know very well, despite the fact, as you say, the theory goes, oh, we're in web, you know, never your websites are fluid thing.

06:14 Keep tweaking it. Keep tweaking it. Well, we didn't tweet the last one for three years. So you are laying down something that in all likelihood with how busy you are isn't going to change that often.

06:27 And you kind of know that. However much you state that we can just change it. We'll change it. Yeah, it can kind of be difficult to swallow your own medicine, right?

06:37 It's I think the biggest reason that we are currently wanting to replace our website pretty similar to yours. You know, we as a company, we evolved from what we were when we created that website at the time. It doesn't really represent our offering very accurately any longer.

06:57 And the case studies we put on there at the beginning, they were too focused on the final visual output of what we did rather than talking about the process, challenges, the story.

07:13 And it just doesn't help, just doesn't portray what we do, how we do it. And it needs to change. And we're also tired of looking at it because it's been around now for four years. I like it.

07:28 What the current website? Yeah. You got the Spirograph. Yeah, I like the case studies. Oh really? Yeah. But what's really annoying about it is that they're too visual and there's like a single paragraph at the top to say something and a couple of stats at the bottom.

07:46 And just a load of images in a template that's actually really difficult for us to put together. Right. It's OK, but it doesn't give us a medium in which to tell the story of a project. No.

07:59 It just doesn't do it for us any longer. When you've been looking at something that's supposed to represent you and your business that's changed a lot over the past four years, you do get tired of it.

08:09 Yeah, no, agreed. You get tired of it. I mean, I think it is a symptom of not paying attention to it though, which is because of how busy you get. I know it's joking me out just then, but I am determined to keep this one moving with the business. Yeah.

08:26 Like I don't want to do another six month. You know, it's just it was such just all that content that you could be doing bit by bit is the content and the content is the key thing, you know.

08:42 And that's again, that's the bit we always say to clients. Well, of course, you'll be supplying the content. And then we're like, because they're always late with it and it delays the launch.

08:54 And it's like, yeah, we know why they're late with it now. It's because it's like virtually impossible to describe. You can't just sit down and describe your business in writing and not then go into a downward spiral of just like, just kind of tweaking and going, oh, God, it's not good enough.

09:12 Oh, no, this sounds rubbish. That's cheesy. You know, that's too boring. So what process did you guys go through? Did you do content first or did you do something? Did you get concepts down first?

09:26 Well, yeah. No, no, you didn't. Good answer. Because the problem there is that, yeah, of course, you kick off with a kind of like, let's get the goals down and now we're going to set a content strategy against those goals.

09:48 And now we're going to do the, you know, the wireframe and the site map. But during that you hit so many roadblocks of, oh, my God, how many case studies we're going to have?

09:59 Well, we should have every bit of work we've ever done. No, we shouldn't. We should have three bits of work. One representing each type of project, you know, and you get into these kind of like back and forths and then halfway through it, someone's just like, oh, God, I need to break the tension.

10:17 I'm going to do some design. And so you get like basically, yeah, like the that bit at least everyone was like, oh, that looks nice. There's no one's arguing about what who we are or where we're going as a business instead.

10:33 We're just going, oh, yeah, I really like that. You know, is that going to animate? Oh, that's lovely. And so I think that's the that's the that's the killer is when you're asking someone to redesign a site and we see this in every single project and you must as well.

10:52 The the process of redesigning your website basically just unlocks an entire thing of do you know what your business is trying to do? Do you know who your customers are?

11:04 And these if they're not things that people were expecting to answer as part of the project, they're sudden suddenly hits them that they cannot.

11:14 A lot of businesses do have a very clear view of that. Most of them are too busy trying to make money. And I think we got hit with that when we weren't expecting it and suddenly were like writing stuff that we suddenly had this importance of, oh, my God, this is who we are.

11:35 We can't just rush this. And yeah, and so it flitted around all over the place. It was like some design, some writing blog posts, writing case studies, constantly coming back to the homepage with me suggesting more and more bizarre concepts.

11:57 At one point I had and I still want to do this. It's good. The concept of the homepage being like a sort of instant messenger chat between the four of us, like somehow live or something.

12:18 No, but the end of it maybe could be the client then got to write. They were like in the chat room with us. It sounds like some sort of weird 90s concept.

12:31 I was on that one for so long until eventually everyone just was like just write a normal homepage. I was like, oh, I know. I've done so much.

12:45 Yeah, we have we have been procrastinating for a while and we're trying to start with content. Yep. Because the main problem is what we have is it doesn't say very accurately what we do any longer.

12:59 Mm hmm. Yeah, we've got stuck in that Morpheus loop of just endless procrastination trying to figure out exactly how you talk about yourself.

13:11 And man, I shit you not, we've been writing stuff for six months and we have got we've got the gigabytes of stuff in Evernote that's just piling up and it's just getting out of control and going around in circles.

13:29 So I think we've decided that we're going to we're going to get some professional help. That's good. We're gonna get you're gonna get a copywriter involved and basically pick the best of what we've written as sort of brief and go, this is vaguely the sort of stuff that we think we want to be saying in some way or another, but it needs to be focused.

13:53 Not this. Yeah, not this. And here's some ammunition, more ammunition you're ever going to need. Can you can you turn this into something cohesive that we can all agree on in some way?

14:06 Oh man, you got to that point. Yeah, we yeah, we sit down with the client and go, guys, I know we said we weren't going to get one. I think we need a copywriter.

14:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just can't come to an agreement on it. And we're just too busy to sit down and spend a lot of time figuring out the right way to say it. And we know what needs to be communicated. It's just getting it down in a way that's concise and accurate and reflective of who we are and what we do.

14:38 So it isn't that complicated. It's just I don't feel we're capable of doing it ourselves. And it is the biggest blocker to us making any progress. Yeah. In the meantime, we're sort of on the side in between other projects when we get a few spare minutes, we're dabbling on sort of a potential case study layout of what we might do.

14:57 So we've written a few of those. OK. Having a little play around and just trying to figure out what works, what doesn't, simplifying the layout, getting some overall styles in place, just trying to play with the grids and the type and yeah.

15:15 And trying to think a little bit more carefully this time about how we are actually going to implement this in the CMS as well. Got you. Which the first time we did that, we just blazingly just made a layout we thought looked cool and then figured out how to implement it afterwards. And as a result, it's a real pain in the ass to get a new case study into the website.

15:37 And that in itself is a blocker. We've got about four or five stacks up now that aren't in the current site that should be on there by now. Right. There just aren't because it's too much effort and we just haven't got the time dedicate to it. It just it just takes us a bit too long right now.

15:52 Yeah, no, that's I think that that's perfectly normal, isn't it? Yeah, I hope so. Do you think you want to explain it differently? Yeah, I just because it's it's quite hard to tell people what you do when you have a specialism and get it targeted in the way that it talks to the type of client you really want to attract.

16:12 Yeah. So it just needs some finessing and some focus because, you know, I can sit in a meeting and talk for an hour about what we do and who we do it for. No problem. Yeah. That's a that's a big problem when you're trying to communicate that in a couple of seconds on the web page.

16:27 It is. It is. I mean, we're about to try and evolve our our homepage in line with some vision statement work we've been doing.

16:39 Vision statement. So I've been seeing you tweet about those. It's here. Yeah. And now it's going to it's not going on the homepage. That's not its purpose, but it needs to now inform what goes on the homepage.

16:53 So, you know, if I had some advice, it would be to like I think the copyright is a good idea. And I think probably as well as all this stuff you've got here for now, which might terrify them.

17:10 You should also just sit down with them for that hour and tell them what you do. I'm only now I'm far enough away from the project now that we can I can start looking at the site and making the changes because part of it is going to be undoing some of that work.

17:25 And it was just too painful to try. I wouldn't have been able to do that just after finishing it, even if there's a bit of it that didn't particularly work, which there are bits of it that I don't think work.

17:38 I couldn't have just couldn't have changed it because it's too much was sunk into it. We've got this quite cool. It's like card animation on our site where you like.

17:51 I see. I was looking. You got the what we do thing with the cards. Yes. So you see they sort of deal they deal out. You see, and that is nice. It's a bit janky and safari safari.

18:06 Get a real browser. Yeah. We didn't test in safari. We only had six months.

18:17 Yeah, like that animation is great. I just think we used it for maybe slightly the wrong thing. So it's like I want to change what that's used for. It like makes it's used for showing the steps in a project and then not the sexiest bit about projects.

18:36 And yet the animation makes them the sexiest bit. So do you know what I mean? It's kind of it's the wrong waiting on that information to have that information being like wow wow wow wow wow.

18:47 So it feels like a little gimmicky and it's it's not putting enough emphasis on what it's trying to say. Well, it's it's it's drawing attention to like quite a boring bit, which is like here's the phases we go through.

19:00 Right. OK. Whereas actually it should draw attention to here's the amazing outcomes you will receive from from even crossing paths with lighthouse.

19:10 That's really nice. So it's like you can just tackle that now as a mini project and just make a minor improvement. Absolutely. And I think that is that's what I'd say. You know, you've got to do it right.

19:23 You know, I think I think your website does have to be nice. You got to be proud of it. But I just wouldn't make it too big. Keep cutting back as if getting live as if as you would with a client say, you know, can we make this smaller?

19:39 Can we do less and get it out of the door? But make sure the design is really tight and that that pleases you. You know, I think that's that's really important because I am actually I'm a bit of a snob for agency sites.

19:54 I do look at an agency site and I do judge an agency on it and you can tell you know, you can tell if they care.

20:05 I think yes. And I almost with some agencies is like when they tried something and it hasn't quite worked. Like sometimes it's like, well, at least they tried something. Yeah. And then you know, as you can see, as you go up towards big agencies, I find in general the sites get worse.

20:23 Yeah, I would agree. I guess it's just a product of being a bigger company, I think, isn't it? They've got to get a bit more corporates. They got to attract a different type of client with a very different message to come across.

20:35 Yeah. Their site probably doesn't actually necessarily bring them much new business directly. They have many other sales channels, I imagine, mostly based around their existing reputation that bring in most of their work.

20:48 I imagine they don't. Some of them don't even build it because like for us, it was time we could have spent on billable work. But we were never going to not build it ourselves.

21:00 I mean, that would be ludicrous. But for a big agency, they're going to be like, well, there's no personal pride here because only a handful of people would get to work on it anyway.

21:15 The rest of the agency wouldn't care. So what's the difference if that handful of people don't even work for us? Yeah, I bet with the big agencies as well, like the percentage of people looking at their websites who are clients is actually probably quite small.

21:29 It's probably more peers in the design industry. Yes. Checking them out. Checking them. Yeah. And then going, why isn't your site very good? Yeah.

21:40 Clearly. It's not even responsive. I'll go away with billionaires. Sorry, too busy finishing the Coca-Cola site.

21:51 Yeah, we, someone suggested that to us that they maybe we should get someone else to do it for us because we're struggling so much. But I just couldn't bring ourselves to do it.

22:03 No, no way, man. No. I would have thrown down this microphone and left the podcast. Or yourself an indie agency.

22:14 Yeah, exactly. Sickening. Yeah, you've got to take care of your own stuff. Yeah. And I think, and it was a lesson in what it's like to actually formulate that messaging.

22:28 And I think that you've got to practice that. Like you say, you can sit down and talk about it in a room. But all that Evernote stuff that you've got and all the stuff we went through, ours are Google Docs, but it's the same deal, except for the fact that people can comment on Google Docs and go, "Dan, this doesn't make sense. Dan, this sounds rubbish." We got stuff in there too.

22:51 Like you're practicing, you know? It's basically practicing writing that kind of copy about yourselves, which then, you know, there's loads of ideas that came out of it that actually make the pop up in other places on our stuff.

23:09 Some of the funkier stuff or sillier stuff, you know, can appear elsewhere. You know, yeah, it's not on the homepage. But yeah, okay. So the big argument on our homepage, and just to see if you're having this argument as well, is whether to be like really explicit in terms of the skills.

23:29 So like, in our case, it was like web design and development. Yeah. Or whether to be, because the argument was people just want to know what you do. You know, you've got to tell people what you do.

23:40 But then the counter argument is like, that's boring and also kind of commoditizes it when we want to be, you know, more exciting than that.

23:51 So then do you go Dreamweavers? Or... Why didn't we do Dreamweavers?

24:02 Yeah, man. That's a big good thing for an app. Oh, no. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Some people would think that you were like stuck in the 90s and other people would think that you were just crap.

24:17 So, yeah, not brilliant. I think you've got to engage with the audience who arrive at your site, right? And people aren't going to discover you by accident.

24:29 I think the straightforward stuff like we do web design and development or whatever your specific niche is, that's... To me, that's what your SEO is going to do.

24:39 That's when people search for those things, that's got to get them to your site. And once they're there, you don't repeat that. You want to engage them. You want to do something a bit more interesting, I think. It's my opinion anyway. And try to be creative with how you explain how your servers can benefit the person who's trying to find someone to help them.

24:59 Yeah. I recently read a really good article, which I think... I wish I'd read at the time actually, it would have helped me in my constant push for us to be more vague and flowery.

25:11 So this article by Seth Godin, it's called "Obvious or Elegant". So do we have show notes? Are we that pro? Yeah, man, we have show notes.

25:21 Cool. You can stick it in there. I'll stick the link. But basically the point in there is that you can either be obvious or you can be elegant. In some cases it's right to just be like, "This is what this is." In other cases you kind of... you basically try and leave a gap for someone to fill with their imagination.

25:41 Yeah. So you kind of state something slightly more abstract. So they fill in the blank with, "Okay, that's what I need." And basically what he's saying is, "If you get it straight away, then you're obvious, you're not elegant." And I think his thing is that being obvious is a bit of a trap.

26:01 It's what you feel you need to be, but actually if you allow yourself to not be then kind of good things happen. Yeah, I would agree to that. It's a balancing act. But he... I mean, like all of his articles, he just leaves it as an open-ended thought.

26:15 He doesn't actually tell you which one to be. But I think it's a really interesting thing to me. It feels like a risk, but I think actually there's a risk in coming across straightforward.

26:29 The risk that someone that knows what they want... you're not going to get that more aspirational client. The one that's like, "Yeah, I know you could be your web designer, but I want to know what your kind of motive is." Yeah, yeah. I would definitely agree with that.

26:51 But at the same time, you don't want to be attracting a load of attention from the wrong type of client. No. So you need to be dreamy, but targeted. Targeted dreams is what you need.

27:03 Targeted dreams. That sounds like a good agency name. There you go. Next marketing agency to start up. Call yourself that. Send me the check.

27:14 Absolutely. And you've got a... not only have you got an agency name, it's also a great homepage tagline. There you go. Yeah.

27:25 So which are you leaning more towards out of those two? Is that the problem? That's the battle. Targeted dreams. That's the dream, man. That's what we're aiming.

27:37 Yeah, at the moment, our website is trying to be too many things to too many people. The content and the projects and the way we present them are too broad. We've got a load of service-based SEO landing pages that are trying to cover a very broad spectrum of things, which technically we do, but we really shouldn't be targeting.

27:58 Are you going to keep them? No. Instead, we're going to do some SEO targeted activity around specific industry verticals, you think. OK. Still got to explore how we're going to do that.

28:09 It's just trying to attract the right type of client based on projects you've done in the past and just trying to come across as experts in certain areas for certain verticals that we would like to target.

28:25 Funny little way into markets, perhaps, that we're not currently in that we think would be good to be in. I would suggest building a site that will let you take that on in the future, but kind of getting rid of that from what you're doing now.

28:42 Because otherwise, that is another whole thing, like how you're going to market and those kind of things. Just getting what you want to say you do is hard enough without then throwing complicated stuff like, "Oh, right. It also needs to power these different strategies." Well, it can power those strategies once it's there.

29:05 Yes. Yeah. It's something we know we need to do. It's just getting it done. And just removing a load of old work and a load of old case studies, getting some new, fresher stuff up there.

29:19 Some of them are getting pretty old now and aren't necessarily the type of work that we do any longer. So just focusing it down, making it less complicated, more straightforward.

29:30 But dreamy. And how are you... Okay. And practically, how are you going to... Are you treating it like an internal project? Are you timing it? Are you setting a budget on it?

29:44 That's sort of the plan. Yeah. So once we need to get past this initial hump first, we need to get a bit of a strategy and a site map in place and go through some of these processes that we would really do with the client properly.

29:59 Yeah. I would recommend not timing it because that's a very horrible number to look at.

30:11 Well, I'm going to track it. I would just blindly plow forward with it. Like honestly, you know, it's like at the end of it, you're going to go, "Oh my God, that's a tens of thousands of pound website that I've just built for myself. What an indulgence.

30:34 Why didn't I buy myself a car?" Well, I think we need to put limits on it and we need to put some constraints. Otherwise, we'll just endlessly procrastinate and iterate and worry too much about getting every little detail perfect.

30:51 I think we need to put some timelines. It's the same as putting a budget on it. We don't have to put a number on it. We can just go, "Right. We're going to block out this amount of time and resourcing for this many people. And in this time, at the end of it, we're going to have a website." Yeah. Or we're just going to disband the company.

31:08 Or it's just spirographs forever. Yeah. Absolutely. That's the one. Maybe you can do like that thing when people try and enforce habits by, you know, they'll donate money to the Donald Trump presidential campaign if it's not there by this point. That kind of stuff.

31:32 Yeah. Well, we just, if we don't block out time, we're just going to end up taking on another project and run out of time again. And it'll just get stuck on a back burner. And, you know, six months later, we'll be in exactly the same position.

31:46 And our view I want you to do would have shifted again. And we just start again and scratch each time. And it's just no good. So we've just got to get some stuff down, get it out there and just start making some moves.

31:59 Yeah. I think doing something smaller to start growing it, definitely a good approach because it makes it even more likely to happen. Yeah. There's a minimum amount of stuff we're going to need to get on there. But, you know, we could definitely start with a lot less case studies. Just start with a couple.

32:15 And if we get time, when we get time, you know, put a few more from the back catalog on there that we think are still relevant. And then I guess the rest of it is all about just the marketing side and building up everything, you know, writing more blog posts, getting some targeted landing pages up there, talking about specific services and things that we think we really want to start targeting.

32:36 Yeah, completely. Has it given you guys a sort of injection of new energy, having a new site? It felt like a bit of a landmark because also because it was like, you know, the two new guys were on it as well.

32:54 So, you know, suddenly there were four of us. Well, now there's two new ones, right? So you've got to make room for two more circles on that website. Absolutely. Just going to have to redesign it. The grid system, right? The grid system is not going to handle that. Let's start again. That's the basics. But actually, just me and Tom. Let's just go back to me and Tom. No, we will. It definitely. Yeah, no, it felt good. And I look at it and it just represents us better. You know, the me and Tom on the front was great. And people that were into it were really into it. But right now it made us look like two guys. And I think there's a big difference between there's two of you and there's four, six of you. Yeah. Huge difference. But no, I think it makes us look like a proper agency whilst I think I hope keeping the vibe. I don't know how to describe this horrible thing I was trying to keep without sounding fringy. But there's definitely a vibe. That's what I'm going to call it. We've kept the vibe alive. Good. I agree. It's a pretty good representation of you guys and what you do. I really like it. And everyone should go check out LighthouseLondon.com. See what you think. Absolutely. Before we change it. Yeah. Yeah. Before they change it again. Quick. And good. Well, I mean, it's been good to see you. I think you guys have really stepped your game up since the word has gone live on the marketing front. And you've been tweeting and doing more blog posts and all sorts of interesting things. But I think that's a conversation from another time. How you go about marketing yourself and the content marketing stuff. Maybe next time. We'll do that soon. Yeah. We can talk about SEO and how I don't believe in it. Like I actually don't believe it exists. Oh really? Oh, wow. It's like leprechauns and fairies. Not real. Not real. It's from the land of make believe. Absolutely. I can't say this stuff to clients, Sean, but I'll say it to you next time in. Yeah. Yeah. When it's a five grand line item on the bill, it's like, yeah, that's real. That's real. P.S. I don't believe in it. Pixie dust. I mean, scratch that out SEO. Yeah. Yeah. Marketing SEO. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's fine. Tom believes in it. And he normally, you know, he grounds me or kicks me under the table as I'm about to say. It's not real. It's not a real thing. Don't worry about it. Good stuff. Well, thanks, everybody. Yeah. If you want to come and check us out, we are on the web at perspective.fm. If you've got any comments, questions or feedback on the show or the episodes, please leave it there. We're also on iTunes. So please go to the iTunes store. Give us a rating that helps us out a lot. We're on Twitter underscore perspective FM and on Facebook and stuff. We'll link us on the websites. I've been John Dark from Every interaction at Darkton on Twitter and at every interacts for the company stuff. And Dan, where can people find you? I'm on at Gentis Maximus on Twitter and at We Are Lighthouse for the company stuff and we are lighthouse.com. And I'm not on Google. That's not a real thing. Fantastic. We'll see you next time. Cheers. See you.