Introducing systems and process to give your business more structure, with Brad Flowers from Bullhorn Creative

00:00 Hello and welcome to Perspective. This is a show by founders of small indie creative agencies giving our perspective on starting and running our own companies. Their aim is to provide useful advice and inspiration to others as well as learn from each other and others we get to come talk on the show. This is our 17th episode. My name is John Dark. I'm a director at Every Interaction and joining me today I have Brad Flowers from Bullhorn Creative, a creative agency in Kentucky USA. How you doing Brad? Hey John, thanks I'm doing great. Excellent. How's the weather over there?

00:31 It's changing. We've had a really hot end of our summer and it felt cool this morning and everyone was quite relieved. We had the door and the windows open here at the office. Nice. Definitely energizing.

00:45 Good. Yeah, the leaves have started falling to the ground over here. It's autumn is coming. Yeah, it's been so dry that the leaves have just fallen. We're not getting much of a, not much as far as autumn colors. Nice. So give us a little background about Bullhorn Creative and what you guys do over there. Sure. We are a brand design agency. We work with medium sized businesses who are often transitioning. They've been successful and are ready to re-articulate who they are and what they do to the world. Sometimes they just feel like they need a facelift or freshening up or clarifying of message. So we do the graphic design and the writing surrounding their brand identity and help them really talk about themselves in a way that they feel is accurate to how they feel about their organization. So like I said, we started in 2008. We started really didn't have a clear idea of what we wanted to do. I have a background in bicycling and at the time I was putting on a citywide bicycle event and my partner was doing a music festival and we had the idea that maybe someone would pay us to do these things.

02:17 And so we started a company and it turns out we couldn't actually make any money doing events. So that was that was good to learn quickly. But the promotional side and some of the design elements were things that we felt like we could do well. And we kind of, ours was an interesting thing where we started off doing just about anything and slowly over time we've kind of whittled things away to the core of what we do now. Our first, there's an event here, the University of Kentucky School of Architecture has an annual event called the Beaux Arts Ball.

03:05 And they go to kind of a warehouse space and the architecture students reinvent it and it's a big fundraiser. And they called us for their bar, the people that were supposed to run the bar for them fell through. And so they called us and asked if we could get a one day liquor license. And we got the license to the bar and we thought we were rich. So that was our big first gig with selling beer at an architecture event. But anyway, we've gone on from there to do lots of other strange things. But I always had the idea that here in Kentucky specifically there has been a narrative and that we felt like we could be part of changing that narrative for the world. If you know anything at all about Kentucky, it probably doesn't have anything to do with sophisticated design or language. It probably is mostly negative. It's good to hear. So it's not just your traditional graphic design branding. It's more you also do brand messaging, communication strategy and promotion, that kind of thing. We're fairly small and where we're located, we're still asked to do quite a bit where in larger markets, a lot of what we do would be split up among different people. We still have to wear quite a few hats. So yeah, we do brand messaging, craft, how the organization talks about itself and thinks about itself.

04:37 Yeah. Well, you seem to have really carved out a nice niche for yourself. I mean, I hear that a lot from almost everyone actually that speak to who have started their own agency that obviously they start off and they do do everything. And then you really find your niche, right? And you find your specialism and the thing that you really enjoy and what you're best at and what you can make the most money from and double down on that and make it your own. And yeah, looking at your work, it really looks like you've achieved that. Thank you. Yeah, I started off, or my background rather is in literature. I think that brings an interesting twist to it where I'm able to do a lot of the writing and thinking that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. And I think it adds a twist to our organization where a lot of folks are, they start off as the doer tends to be the main offering, whether it's a design or development, have been able to come at it from a slightly different way and think about how language fits into that. And it's been really rewarding, something I love to do. That's a nice angle. And it's an important one. I mean, I think it's often overlooked that, especially in the branding space where the whole actual messaging of the brand itself is just as important as the way it looks, if not more so. Sure. Getting that copy just right, it takes a lot. I mean, we've just gone through this exercise. We had a content strategy person come and work with us to help us redefine our brand strategy and how we talk about ourselves. And that's just culminated in us relaunching an updated version of our website today, actually. That was great. Congratulations. Thanks. Yeah, there's a lot of work in the making.

06:11 Yeah, just working really hard. We took a very content first approach. We just wrote a blog post about it as well, detailing the whole process and started with the copy because we already had the brand. We didn't need to actually update the visual identity. It was more trying to communicate what it is we do as a company. Sure. It was enlightening to be able to do that on your own project. I mean, we do it with clients quite a bit as well, especially when trying to figure out and represent a business from a UX perspective. Right. With websites and products and trying to sell and promote those on promotional websites. But when it's your own business, I think we were just a bit too close to it to go through our own processes with ourselves. We had to get someone in to help us out with it. Yeah, it's surprisingly hard to talk about yourself and to have the perspective to talk about yourself in a way that's reasonable, I guess. Yeah, that's great. Congratulations.

07:05 Thanks. So, yeah, I think that's given us some pretty good background there. You told me that quite recently you've been experimenting with some new methodologies, which you've been having some success with your business. And I guess that's what we'd like to talk through today to understand what you've done, what's changed in the past year with the changes you've made in the business, where this inspiration has come from and what sort of benefits you've been seeing from the business. Sure. Yeah. Why don't you start at the beginning and let us know what started this inward look at the processes and drove you to start thinking about making some changes? Yeah, I think for the last couple of years, we've had the general feeling that we were a little bit stuck, but we just didn't know exactly what to do. And earlier in the year, I was fortunate to be asked to be part of a peer group of folks who are running businesses.

08:05 And it's actually really great because the other people are in dramatically different industries. And so they have a really interesting perspective. And you get to see a wide range of how people approach and think about their businesses. And a couple of the guys have been using this particular, what they call an entrepreneurial operating system to help, I guess, organize how they approach their business and to be more proactive about how you run it. Because it's so easy to spend so much time working on the client work or the work you're getting paid for, that it's hard to take time and set aside time and really think and put the same energy into working for yourself.

08:50 So these guys really, really encouraged us. And there are any number, I'm sure any number of methodologies that you could use. We're using this particular thing, the book is called Traction. It's kind of just a way of organizing your company and your business in such a way that you can work more proactively, I guess, without the effort. It kind of puts into habit processes that allow you to keep doing things. So yeah, what kind of areas of the business does this book and this methodology focus on? Well, the starting point for us was thinking through the organization and really getting clarity. Like a lot of small groups, there are 13 of us here at Bullhorn. And as we've grown from two, really everyone's job has had to change quite a bit. And early on, everyone had to do kind of everything. And so it's been good to just take a step back and say, okay, here's our organization. And we're broken down into these categories, this general business development category. And assigning a chair or a person to really be in charge of each category has been actually really helpful. Some folks are smart enough to start off doing this. Unfortunately, we weren't. So we've kind of had to do it later. So there's this business development side, there's someone who's in charge of that in charge of setting the goals in charge of weekly meetings with their people, someone on the production side, and then someone on finance.

10:31 And then also, they really recommend having someone who can work across and kind of act as a tiebreaker in case of disagreements. And so that's been my role. I've been this integrator who works across these different sections and have helped make sure everyone's kind of moving forward at the same time. So having just taking the time to step back and say, okay, this is your job.

10:56 And here are the five things that you're responsible for. That really simple act, which seems basic and common sense. And like anyone who was running a responsible business would do it.

11:06 We hadn't done it. So that simple thing really has helped us a lot just having a clear idea of who's supposed to be doing what. And how many founders are there in the business?

11:19 There were two founders. And over time, we've grown. And now there are five total partners. Have you decided to equally split these new responsibilities between those five directors?

11:33 Or have you just decided just a couple of you need to be responsible for this? My original partner, he's now a silent partner. And so he's kind of taken a back seat. He started a side business that kind of sprung out of what we were doing here, has now taken his full attention.

11:50 And so there are really only four of us that are active in the business. And one of the gentlemen he's chairing business development and marketing. The other one is chairs the account management.

12:05 And the other one is our creative director. And he oversees all the creative production. And then I end up with two things. I chair the financial slash HR. And then I also function as the integrator working across. You're the keystone. Yeah, I guess so.

12:27 One of the other interesting things, you just see how interrelated it all is. And it's hard to see. It would be hard to say that one person is the keystone. It's all, you know, business development doesn't work without good creative. Good creative can't work without good account management. And account management never happens without business development. So it's all so tightly, tightly woven together that it's really kind of actually hard to parse out and talk about them individually.

12:53 Yeah, sure. So this methodology, this also touches on marketing as well. Yeah, the it's flexible in the sense that it allows depending on how your business is structured.

13:07 Like, for example, one of the gentlemen that's in the peer group with me, his account managers also are his business development people. And so they do a fair amount of the marketing.

13:19 So his his is set up differently than ours. But business development and marketing for us is together as as one section, I assume, depending on how large your organization is, it could easily be separate things. Or maybe in some organizations, you know, we actually talked about it a lot back and forth. Because marketing for us is so tightly connected to the creative that we put out the actual work product, because our case studies, the content that we put out on our blogs, that is our marketing. So we went back and forth, I guess, just to say, like how you structure it is somewhat is somewhat arbitrary. But the point is, is that you take time to think about it and think about a structure that works for your organization. Nice. And just and just realizing that if two people are in charge of something, stuff tends to fall through the cracks, I think. So it's, it's, to me, it's been really helpful to say, okay, this is your thing. This is what you're going to be responsible for. And then it's, you know, it takes takes trust. But if you trust the folks you work with, it can be can be really rewarding. And also, for me personally, it's been a huge stress reducer. In the past, I kind of partly worried about all of these things.

14:44 And now it's it's really great to just know, I don't have to worry about it, they have it under control. He's going to worry about it. So I think if if there's a person who's kind of a primary director, I would strongly encourage you to do something like this, just to ease your mind some quality of life. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we went through a similar exercise at the beginning of doing our mentorship and yeah, drew up drew up this org chart of the organization as we as we wanted to see it in in five years time. Right. And yeah, we then divvied up the the roles between us and decided which ones should be solely owned by one of us or which ones made more sense to share and spread the load. Yeah. And yeah, I think we've seen the benefit of that as well, just just knowing that that person is responsible for that, that type of activity just just gives you a bit more clarity when trying to make decisions in the business at any level, whether it's new business, whether it is marketing or HR or whatever it is, just just having some definition around those roles and responsibilities makes a big difference. Absolutely. I think we were concerned putting this together. We had some hangups about being too hierarchical as an organization. Was that something you thought about when you were going through it with your group? Yeah, we've always tried to steer clear of it. But as I understand it, from people I know who have spoken to who have much larger agencies is that something you can really only do when you're up to a certain size, that the flat hierarchy effectively can't scale beyond 18, 20 people, and you need to you need to start introducing these layers in order to be able to make sure that everything runs efficiently.

16:36 So we're a fair way off that still. So we're in luxury of being able to remain pretty flat and it doesn't have any, in fact, I think it's more beneficial to have a sort of flat hierarchy across the business when you are smaller. Yeah. And it seems like for us, it's somewhat generational.

16:53 It seems to me that some of the younger folks who are just now coming on are less concerned about their being hierarchy than me. I don't know. Maybe that attitude is changing somewhat.

17:07 Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. People don't worry as much about job titles. It's more about enjoying the job and knowing what they've got to do and who they've got to work with, making sure they get paid enough. It seems to be the main priorities with people today. And yeah, it doesn't matter what your job title is necessarily.

17:26 Right. And again, like you said, that clarity thing, what you're supposed to be doing is so important. It's hard not to stress that too much. Yeah. Yeah. So what are the changes in the team came about from trying these new practices? So one thing we started doing is we've started having this, we have a standing 90 minute meeting for the directors, which has been, it's been a big help. We use that as a time. We really only talk about, again, working, we have a distinction here between working on the business and working in the business. And we really focus on just working on the business during that time. And the way it's organized, we set quarterly goals that we work towards that are all oriented around kind of a three year prediction of where we want to be in three years. Okay. Interesting. Why three years?

18:21 I think three years seems to be good. It's not, it's not so far out that it just seems like a total guess. So, but it still feels really aspirational. But again, I think that that's probably an arbitrary, it could be two, three, five, whatever works for you. As long as there's something out there that you're working towards. I guess the further you go, the more, or the less accurate it becomes. Yeah. What, what we're really working on is what we've done in the past. We've set goals, like financial goals, for example, or goals related to the, to the products that we're putting out, but we didn't have the metrics in place to set anything that was reasonably accurate. So we were, we would either end up being quite a bit under or quite a bit over.

19:15 So this is where we're trying to get into the discipline of not setting goals so much as setting predictions, which is for us has been a really healthy attitude change is something that we needed to figure out. What did you have to put in place to get the data to be able to then make those predictions? Well, that's been another, another thing that I've, I've been learning about. We have a scorecard that we work off of. And what we've been trying to figure out is the distinction between leading and lagging indicators. From what the metaphor that, that that I understand is, like, say you have the goal of losing a certain amount of weight, the lagging indicators, when you stand on the scale is the number on the scale. That's a lagging indicator. It's something that's really easy to measure, but it's really hard to change at that point, where leading indicators are potential things like calories consumed, calories burned, which are much more difficult to measure, but which are easily changed more easily changeable and manipulated. Does that make sense? Yes. So we've been working to identify these leading and lagging indicators. And in the business on the business development side, it's, it's fairly easy to develop leading indicators. You can think like, how many new proposals do you need to get out?

20:43 What does the value of the proposals? How many close contracts? How much proposed a business in general? And then maybe even thinking of a step back or more on the marketing side, how many visitors to the website, how many signups to the email newsletter, those sorts of things, which all are leading indicators of interest. What's been a little harder, what we've had to think more about is in our business, in the work that we do, how do we get our heads around productivity, build hours, for example, hours versus contract, how efficiently are we using our time? And because of the way we work, we tend to work on a project basis. And so we keep track of hours to see basically if we made money or not. Profitability. Profitability, yeah. But we really haven't been particularly responsible. And so we've kind of, again, this whole process has identified some weak spots and where we need to do a better job. So we realized thinking about the data that we needed, we actually realized some of the data we could get because of, you know, kind of lazy business practices. So we've had to, had to really get better about things like tracking hours and tracking data in general across the business from our business financials to business development, to account management, to the actual productivity of the staff. Makes a big difference, doesn't it?

22:21 We've always tracked time in our agency, but what we haven't done is tracked all the other metrics, all the other mostly money related metrics in terms of burn rates and average income over time. And we're spending money and where we're making it and, you know, which projects we're really actually making a profit on and which ones maybe are making a loss. And yeah, you really just have a good view across all of those different aspects in order to be able to make a call on what you're going to do with that data and make use of it properly. You do. And at some point also, there's just such a massive amount of data available that you have to figure out how to get it in a usable format so that it actually does help and impact decisions that you're making.

23:18 Yeah. We found it all a little bit overwhelming at first. Once you did start to get a handle on it, how do we use all this stuff to actually make some better decisions?

23:28 Right. You go from like, what does it mean to how do you make it useful to then actually make it at some point making good decisions. And have any of these things that you've put in place really affected your day to day production on projects or is it more operational?

23:47 That's a good question. I think one thing that has made a difference, we took the time to go back and think about our core values. Why do we exist? That was one of the very first things that we did.

24:04 That's been actually surprisingly useful. The way we approached it this time, we wanted to get something that really felt real and accurate and useful and not just fluffy. And so we spent a fair amount of time thinking about ourselves and what was really core about bullhorn and which is just really a way of saying what's core about this group of people who've been kind of attracted together. What about their personalities is consistent across the board and what personality traits, what sort of people would you be looking for. And so when we bring folks on board, whether we're looking for a new employee or an intern, and even we're starting to try to figure out how to do it with new clients is making sure we have this core value alignment because it makes such a big difference. And in the past, it was really difficult for us to articulate when something didn't feel right. It was just like, well, I don't know, maybe we're not going to get along or it doesn't feel quite right, but we didn't really have the words to describe it. And so now we have some language that we can use and questions that we can ask people. Yeah, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier when I was talking about our website and the new content that we'd recently developed for that to relaunch it. I think most agencies and businesses in general really struggle to communicate their core values clearly using easily understood language that attracts the right clients. They often use buzzwords and you really need to clarify and express yourself with authenticity and passion in order to demonstrate the value that you can bring to people.

26:01 I think focusing on this and having this well defined allows you to describe the value that you can provide to your clients in a way that makes you attractive to their needs. It's not features and benefits or the challenges they face that you can solve. It's about what you do and why that makes a difference to your customers and what drives you to make that difference. You've got to get in your passion for it in there. But it also sounds like this process for you has helped you understand and define your culture internally. Yeah, that's exactly right. You have to understand who you are and you have to think about culture. It's a word I think it's actually very similar to me. It's a similar word to brand or branding where it's a word that people use really fluently, but when it comes down to it, I have a really hard time defining what it actually is.

26:55 It's actually quite difficult to define, okay, what is your culture? It's not good coffee or beer in the refrigerator. What actually is it? Those might be byproducts of your culture or they might just be something that you feel like you have to do. I can share a link to the end result for us after this introspection. I recently listened to a book by a guy here named Tony Shea who talks about culture and brand as just different sides of the same coin.

27:32 I think there's probably something to that is understanding your culture is really a way of understanding your brand. Yeah, and it's one of those things there's no right answer, right? It's what works for you and your business. That's exactly right. I think the only way it's useful is if you think about it in relation to your own business, if you try to come up with the right answer, it's going to be wrong. When did you start thinking about implementing some of these processes? How long have you been at it and how much change have you seen over that time?

28:07 Let's see. This group that I was in started at the beginning of the year in January. We started working on some of these things basically right away. Since the first quarter, we've been working at it slowly, but I would say we really didn't gain kind of steam or clarity until probably the summer. Since then, we've been working really hard and we think we've taken some big steps. Some of the big steps are probably a little hard to see from the outside because it's kind of perception of what it's like to work here, especially as a person who kind of directs the business. What is that like? I think just the feeling of moving towards something that's purposeful and accurate and proactive is it just feels great. This quarter, for example, I just found out before the call that we hit our business development goal for the quarter.

29:12 We basically hit it right on. It feels great that we had this goal out there and we were able to predict it and the team, everyone rallied around it. We've been really forthcoming and transparent about what we were up to and everyone has bought into it. There were several people who had to work together to do this.

29:34 Congrats. Let's prove it's working. Yeah. We were really close. That was the other thing that I really like about it. We had a number that we knew we could do, but it would be difficult and everyone kind of worked together to hit it.

29:49 When you say a number, you mean you were doing some forecasting around turnover mostly that you were trying to aim for? Yes. I guess the downside of doing mostly projects is that we're always looking for new projects. Given the size of our staff, we kind of knew the range of what we needed to do from being profitable to being where we really wanted to be. This isn't exactly a revenue goal, but it was a new business, new contract amount goal. It makes sense the difference because our billing cycle tends to lag. However long we think the project, say that we think it's going to be a six month project, we'll bill over six months. Some of the new business, we might have only gotten one month payment.

30:39 It's more about what's in the pipeline. Exactly. Yeah. It's predicting what's going to be... Now we're getting to where we can start to better predict six, nine months out when we weren't really able to do that before.

30:54 What things in particular have you found that have really helped give you that forward looking visibility? Let's see. I'm trying to think of how to answer that truthfully and not just give a pat answer.

31:06 The funny thing is it's all like basic common sense. Okay. A lot of experience and knowledge of what you've done in the past and knowing what you and the team are capable of and what you can put your minds to, I guess.

31:22 Well, yeah. We know generally that if we put out a certain number of proposals, over the last nine months or so, we've figured out how much of that proposed work will actually close and be actual front end, we can start to say, "Okay, so we need to get out a million dollars worth of proposals this quarter because we only know 30% is going to close." That's just an example.

31:49 That wasn't actually the numbers. But we can start to make pretty educated guesses based on some of the data that we've been accumulating over the last six to nine months.

32:03 We can start to predict out. Again, anyone who's been involved in a business now is probably yawning and saying, "Yeah, of course, why wouldn't you do that?" But the reality is I didn't go to business school. I have a degree in literature, so I can talk to you about literature, but this is a little harder. But it's been actually super rewarding and I'm excited about it and I really love it. Yeah. I think that's partly the reason why we're doing this podcast, I guess, is that I think the new wave of companies being set up on founded by businessmen.

32:42 Yeah. The first company I worked at was founded by business people. They weren't doers. They weren't designers. They weren't developers. They weren't creative people. They were just business people for whom it made sense to sort of accompany and then they hired all those people in.

32:57 This new generation of companies that have been starting up the past decade or so and now are really coming into their own and growing to be stronger, bigger companies are founded by people, by doers, by the creative people, the talented people who cut their teeth in their early days doing something different or working for other people.

33:23 And yeah, you do need some help to get you to the point of becoming a businessman because it doesn't come naturally to almost anyone, I think. Yeah, I agree. Do you have a network of peers that you can talk to around the stuff where you are?

33:39 There are peer groups, certainly. I think there are probably several different sorts of peer groups. The hard part is finding one where the other people are in similar enough situations to where they can understand what you're going through but not so similar to where they don't have perspective. I was really lucky to find a group who are really interested in what we're doing and of all the things, I guess that's probably the number one piece of advice is if you're trying to run a business, find a peer group because their experience will be invaluable and also their perspective because you're so focused on something and you're the one having sleepless nights and you feel like you're the only one in the world who could potentially understand but when you step outside and realize, "Oh, wait, there are a lot of people who have done this before.

34:31 I'm not the only one." Nice. How do you see this affecting your business over the next six months through to several years? How do you see things working differently for you now?

34:42 I see us using the data that we've collected in a way. I think now we have most of our major systems in place. We've documented processes. We know generally how we want to run the business and it's a matter of refinement, getting better and better, figuring out what information is helpful to us and what's just kind of noise. I think that's the next step that I'm really excited for and then really just using it to continue to make the business more and more successful.

35:17 I think we can continue to do better and better work and getting really all of our business processes in line. I think that the irony is getting our business processes in line, we'll do better creative work. We won't have time spent worrying about who was doing what, how's money going to come in this month. When that sort of stuff is set, I think you can really focus on the task at hand and do better work for the client you have and then spend the energy to go after the clients that you want. Yeah, that's great. It really frees up those people to focus on the things that they're enjoying as well when it makes for happier employees and happier employees leads to better work and hopefully more of it as well. Yeah, and I think for all of us, we spend a lot of time doing this and we want to enjoy what we're doing. That's a huge part of it, just getting the background things set so that for all of our quality of life is better.

36:30 You personally, do you enjoy working on the business more than in? Do you miss working in it as much? I mean, could you foresee you continuing to do in this type of role and those responsibilities for you growing or would you rather go back to creating and maybe hire someone in in the future to maybe take some of these responsibilities off of your shoulders?

36:54 I really enjoy challenges and learning new things. So right now, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing but I can definitely see at some point wanting to hand off some of the things I'm doing to someone else so that I can be more engaged in different sort of work, whether it's working for a client or whether it's working for Boulorn, doing more of the stuff that I like doing, which is to kind of spend more time writing and to spend more time. I'm hesitant to say to spend more time engaged creatively because what I've really found is that these tasks that don't get put in the creative bucket like pulling your year-to-date financials or whatever, these sorts of things, the people who do it well, approach it with immense and unbelievable creativity.

37:53 Yeah, I think there's creativity to be found in all aspects of the business really. Yeah, that's really trying to change how we talk about things because there's just as much creativity in managing account as there is in designing a logo.

38:10 Superb. Yeah, so if someone was to come up to you today and say, "I don't do any of this stuff in my business. Everyone's running around at Headless Chickens and we need a bit more structure and we need to figure out, we need some of this magic Boulorn creative philosophy in our life too." Where would you tell them to start? How would you tell them to get going down this path?

38:34 I would say, well, the first off, I would recommend trying to find a peer group. And I think there are, it seems now that there are peer groups in every city, there'll be some sort of, whether it's executive, something or other. So that would be the first step.

38:51 The series of books that have really helped us are these books surrounded, the ideas called Traction, how to get a grip on your business. And some of the stuff, I think the point with any of this is taking what you can, making it useful and sticking with it. So if it happens to be this particular book and there's a narrative version called Get a Grip, if listening or reading something more narrative based is more appealing, sometimes the business books can be dry and a little hard to process, I guess. And so this gives you a little bit, I don't know, it just gives you a narrative account of someone actually doing it. So those are the two things I would try. First, if you really have no idea what's going on, I would listen to those two books or read those two books and then try to start to make small improvements. I tend to be very impatient and want things to happen now. And so thinking about how to do just one thing a week, you don't have to do all this at once, just one thing a day, one thing a week, and you start to really realize major changes, but definitely does take a little bit of patience.

39:05 Yeah. I think trying to do everything all at once can be a bit overwhelming and it can lead to you stumbling. Whereas if you just introduce these things gradually, it's just much easier to deal with and everybody gets a bit more acclimatized to the change that's going on. Right. Yeah. I think it's easy to forget that a lot of people aren't that comfortable with a changing environment. And so for me, I'm pretty comfortable with change. It's hard to forget that it's pretty unsettling to a lot of people. These things in slowly is probably a good idea. Great advice. And I would just encourage you to take a step back and think about working on your business as a way of working towards that. That it's not always just about better and better work, but sometimes things like business processes, getting those things in place can really help you get to these projects that you want. Thanks for sharing your experiences, Brad. It's been really useful. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time talking with me. Excellent. So if people want to find out more about yourself or more about Bullhorn, where can they do that? You can find out about us at bullhorncreative.com. We have a pretty active blog and yeah, you could always contact me at brad@bullhorncreative.com. Excellent. I'll put all the links in the show notes for people to find you. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, John. And thanks to everyone for listening. I've been John Dark at Dark John on Twitter from Every Interaction. You can find us online at everyinteraction.com on the web and at everyinteract on Twitter. If you'd like to contact us about this episode or find any of our past episodes, you can do so on our website at perspective.fm or send us an email directly on get@perspective.fm. We're on Twitter at underscore perspective FM. You can find us on iTunes. And as always, we appreciate rating some reviews. You might leave us there. Please tweet about the show, share it on Facebook, tell your friends, everything helps. We're easy to find in your podcast app of choice. Just search for perspective FM in Google Music, the Apple podcast app Overcast or Pocket Cast, whatever is your preferred podcasting app of choice, you'll find us there. All the links on our website along with the show notes for this episode. Thanks everybody and we'll see you next time.